Forum CM: Pojedynki pancerne Vol. 2

17.09.2005

14:31

[1]

-Stirlitz- [ Konsul ]

Forum CM: Pojedynki pancerne Vol. 2

Niniejszym pozwalam przenieść dyskusję do nowego wątku (link do cześci pierwszej - patrz niżej) i zgodnie z zapowiedzią wklejam
obszerny post, który pojawił się ogniś na Axis History forum, a wcześniej na AFV News forum i wydał mi się na tyle ciekawy, że go sobie zachowałem. Tekst jest (nie)stety w języku angielskim i - jak łatwo zgadnąć - dotyczy okoliczności śmierci Michaela Wittmanna i zawiera podsumowanie argumentów na poparcie tezy, o tym, że zginął on z rąk (a raczej lufy) Shermana Firefly z 1. Northamptonshire Yeomanry.

17.09.2005

14:32

[2]

-Stirlitz- [ Konsul ]

Sorry to bring this up again and sorry to add more fuel to the fire but here are some posts from a thread in the Missing Links Forum from a while ago. These posts were made by James Blackwell, who has done much research on this subject. I hope that this will help people to better understand the events regarding Wittmann's last battle.

Here they are:

"This is a bit of a tough one as different sources give different numbers of Tigers actually involved and/or KO'd so its very difficult to piece it all together to know whats right nearly 56 years later.

Heres a post I put together on the subject last year responding to a similar Q on AFV News which is about as much sense as I can make of it and may be of some help, but still not unfortunately as clear-cut as you would maybe like;

There are a lot of conflicting and spurious accounts re Wittmann's death on Aug. 8 1944 - (just under 2 months after his famous action at Villers-Bocage) - from surrounded by 5 Canadian Shermans, to Polish Shermans, artillery/naval strike, Typhoon hit etc., etc.

But contrary to the oft quoted Typhoon strike, the latest and the ONLY one that can seemingly be substantiated with facts is, that he WAS taken out with 2 shots to his right rear flank by a single Sherman Firefly belonging to Sgt. Gordon (gunner; Trooper Joe Ekins), from 3.Plt., A.Sqn., 33.Arm. Bgd., 1.Northamptonshire Yeomanry. He and the other Tigers with him were caught totally unawares, not realizing the British had taken up a flanking position so close by, thinking the Poles ahead were their only concern.

This Firefly was hidden in a tree line with a troop of standard 75mm Shermans to Wittmann's starboard side, N.East of Gaumesnil as he moved north in command Tiger "007" (ex Heinz Von Westerhagen's, whom he had succeeded as Bttn.CO on July 10 when the former suffered complications to an earlier head wound, hence allowing Wittmann to inherit his Tiger).

Wittmann's was the last vehicle in the advance, through an open field parallel to the N158, toward the 1.Polish Arm.Div. reported to be ahead at Aignan de Cramesnil.

He did so along with 6 other Tigers, 5 of which were initially KO'd and 1 abandonned in this unexpected ambush, with the last KO'd a little later (source: "TIC 2"; p.259 text, p.290 pic., + Agte; pp.423-433 text ‹p.425 in particular›, p.477 pic, + pp.182-183 "Panzers in Normandy - Then & Now ‹a little dated and still claiming 5 Shermans and only 4 Tigers›, + p.46-53 "After the Battle" mag no. 48 - "Michael Wittmann's Last Battle" - which even has transcripts of British I/C and radio traffic describing the incidents).

The only minor glitch is that the British claim less kills than Tigers found, but in the heat of battle no one would really be keeping meticulous score).

The Agte book describes the action concisely even down to recollections from Hans Höflinger who witnessed the hits into the side wall around the fuel tank area that initially lifted and displaced the turret onto the hull top, and began a fire, before ammo cooking off sent it skyward to its final resting place behind the vehicle. The penetrations and subsequent explosions instantly killed the crew (Agte p.425 & 429). The vehicle was obviously still moving when hit and the explosions have broken both tracks while it continued rolling off them till slewing to a halt some 20 metres further on.

The Germans for a long time refused to believe he had been killed and listed him as "MIA" for morale purposes though most officers in s.SS.Pz.Abt.101 new he had been killed. His roadside grave, were he was buried by local civilians in a communal pit, was found in 1983 based on research being done for "Panzers in Normandy - Then & Now". The research by the author led to the German War Graves Commission searching the area with metal detectors, finding the bodies and relocating his and his crew's remains to La Cambe War Cemetary where they still lie today.

Why the 'Typhoon' or 'surrounded by Shermans' (Polish or canadian) myths still persist when so much evidence now 'proves' it was a lone Firefly, is a real mystery? The Germans apparently began it as a propaganda exercise (after first listing him as MIA for a very long time), so as to refuse admitting to the troops and public that the famed 'invincible' Tiger Ace was beaten by another tank, and made his end sound more martyr-like by implying him going down to the dreaded 'Jabo'.

Apart from everything else stacked against it, the Typhoon account suffers even further, if not fatally, due to no sorties being recorded as having flown in that area on that day from all accounts.

The engine deck damage reported by a French farmer, of questionable reliabilty anyway, could easily, and most likely, have resulted from the fuel tanks going up and the subsequent ammo explosions following the 17pdr penetration.

As for the Poles and Canadians, while both very close by, they were beaten to it by (the Squadron's 2IC), Captain (later Lord) Boardman's ambush from the treeline.

On pp.425-430 of Agte's book the story is presented fairly conclusively. Wittmann at first wasn't going to go along on the attack but at the last minute changed his mind as he felt the platoon leader Heurich was too inexperienced - this being only his first action. Apparently Wittmann was uneasy about the probe, but put this aside out of a sense of duty to to do the right thing and keep an eye on Heurich.

Advancing in the group of 6 other Tigers with Wittmann (ie. 7 total*), was Dollinger, Blase (314), Iriohn, Kisters (312?), Rolf Von Westernhagen (334?) and Hans Höflinger (who was in the other command Tiger possibly 008, or 009 - though 009 should have been Dollinger's so not sure of his mount on this attack.).

Tiger "314" - Blase's, is mentioned as the only other KO'd Tiger apart from "007" that can be ID'd from the pics. * This is the odd bit, for some reason the list above doesn't include Heurich's who is known to have had his own Tiger and be leading the advance as per the account below, so obviously there were either 8 vehicles or one too many is listed here? So curious to know if anyone has another/the correct composition of the Tigers used?

On p.425 Agte states:

"Hans Höflinger now describes the subsequent course of the attack from his experience: 'Then we drove off, Michel (sic) right of the road and I left, four others with Michel and the brother of Heinz Von Westernhagen with me. Approximately 800 meters to Michel's right there was a small wood which struck us as suspicious and which was to prove fateful to us. Unfortunately, we couldn't keep the wood under observation on account of our mission. We drove about one to one-and-a half kilometres, and then I received another radio message from Michel which only confirmed my suspicions about the wood. We began taking heavy fire from anti-tank guns and once again Michel called, but didn't complete the message. When I looked out to the left I saw that Michel's tank wasn't moving. I called him by radio but received no answer. Then my tank received a frightful blow and I had to order my crew to get out as it had already begun to burn fiercely. My crew and I dashed toward the rear and got through. I stopped to look around and to my dismay discovered that five of our tanks had been knocked out. The turret of Michel's tank was displaced to the right and tilted down somewhat. None of his crew had got out. I climbed into Von Westernhagen's tank and, together with Heurich, whose Tiger was undamaged, tried to get to Michel's tank. We could not get through. Dr. Rabe also tried it, but in vain...I can state the exact time of the incident; it was 1255 hours, near the Falaise-Caen road in the vicinity of Cintheaux."

Agte then follows up on p.425 with the British account of the incident:

"...At 1240 hours Captain Boardman gave Sergeant Gordon's tank the order to fire. The Tigers were seven-hundred meters distant. The Firefly's gunner was Trooper Joe Ekins, who hit the rearmost Tiger of the three Tigers in his sight with two shots. The Tigers had failed to spot the well-camouflaged Shermans, and it was only after the first shots had been fired and a Tiger knocked out that Wittmann transmitted the message referred to by SS-Hauptscharfuhrer Höflinger: 'Move! Attention! Attention! Anti-tank guns to the right! - Back up!...'."

On p.425 "Höflinger described how, after it was hit, the turret of Wittmann's Tiger was displaced to the right and tilted forward. That was its condition immediately after the tank was knocked out. Furthermore it is absolutely certain that the turret was blown off shortly afterward by the force of the exploding ammunition - possibly accelerated by burning fuel in the fighting compartment - and thrown several meters away from the tank. This is confirmed by the only existing photo of 007, taken by a French civilian soon after the engagement. The Tiger therefore began to burn immediately after it was hit, which by then caused the ammunition in the turret to explode. Only the tremendous force produced by the exploding armour-piercing and high-explosive shells could have torn the turret, which weighed tonnes, from the hull and then tossed it meters through air. The crew must have been killed or incapacitated when the tank was hit. The subsequent explosion then extinguished any doubts as to the fate of the five men inside 007."

Hans Dollinger the battalion signals officer, and SS-Sturmmann Alfred Bahlo his Radio Op, also recount their experiences as the lead vehicle in the attack along a similar vein to Höflinger...and say on p.429 as they make their way back from their burning Tiger with the fatally wounded Obschf. Schott "...On the way we passed the knocked out panzer of Hauptsturmführer Wittmann; the turret was blown off."

Dr. Rabe also witnessed the hit and described it in a letter to Wittmann's wife to tell her the real story: "When the attack got rolling, I drove forward several hundred meters and covered the last stretch on foot. There was quite a lot of heavy anti-tank and artillery fire. I wanted to get to Michel's (sic) tank. When I got to within about 250 to 300 meters I saw flames suddenly shoot from the tank and the turret fly off and fall to the ground. The tank then burned out completely. I still tried to reach it, but I couldn't cross the open field as the Tommy fired at solitary me with their anti-tank guns. It is unlikely Michel got out before the hit, as I would have seen him. None of the remaining crew members came back either."

Agte sums up with the following:

After evaluating all available documents on the German and English sides and interviewing the handful of survivors of this action..., one can only assume that the tank that was hit at 1247 hours, was 007. SS-Hauptsturmführer Dr.Rabe's account and the English war diary both mention that this was the only Tiger that blew up after being hit. The eight minute time discrepancy compared to that given in Höflinger's account is of little significance as the source of the error appears to be completely genuine and time discrepancies can never be ruled out. As well, Höflinger's account was written several weeks after the events in question; it is also thoroughly possible that the error in time might lie in he English war diary."

As to Gordon's Firefly, there is still some debate as to its markings and even vehicle type. Ken Jones sated in a post on the old Missing Links' Allied D/G in April last year, that there is even speculation that it may have been a Hybrid IC not a VC (M4A4) as is commonly thought. His info comes from conversations with a researcher delving into the history of this unit's Shermans.

Gordon's was apparently callsign; Red & White outline "12". The source for confusion with regard to it being a Polish Firefly in a few sources may well be the use of Russian names on the hull sides by A Squadron of the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry (B Sqn. used American names, and C had Northamptonshire county place names). The two schools of thought for Gordon's Firefly are "Velikye Luki" (as per the Dragon Kit), or possibly "Vladimir"? The rear of the turret bustle had an open white triangle with a small "3" in front of it. Hull markings appear to be a red square with white border and white "173" inside carried on the RHS transmission housing and LHS upper hull rear, plus an upside down light green triangle sitting point to point over a black one all surrounded with a white outline located on the LHS transmission housing and on the RHS upper hull rear.

As an interesting bit of trivia, I believe this was Gordon's last action as he was wounded in return fire when one of three rounds from another Tiger struck his half opened hatch which slammed it shut striking him on the head - he climbed out dazed and was then further wounded.

From post-war interviews Tom Boardman and Joe Ekins recount they obviously had no idea that it was Wittmann and Tigers from s.SS.Pz.Abt.101 they had just encountered. Lord Boardman later stated "Had I known who was commanding those Tiger tanks, and his record, I should have been even more concerned than I was - if possible. It was bad enough to know that we only had four tanks in the Squadron with guns capable of pentrating a Tiger's armour and that I had only one of those in my section of the battlefield." (p.50 "ATB" Mag No.4Cool

Anyway apologies for the excessive length, but hope this is of some help to finally put this to one to sleep and has been of some interest.

Anyone even remotely interested in Wittmann and/or LAH in general should dig deep if at all possible and get a copy of Agte's huge album as it really is the bible on all things 1.SS.Pz.Div., or pick up the recently released After the Battle title on "Villers-Bocage: Through the Lens" by Danny Taylor which minutely details his earlier exploits. "

"1. The numbers involved...If we both agree that on that day, in that engagement 1.N.Y "did" make 3 (maybe 4) "confirmed" Tiger kills (as Höflinger's is known to be KO'd on the other side of the road too), and 2 (possibly 3?) got away, and that one 2.Kp. Tiger was found 1500m NE further forward of Wittmann's - as per p.425 Agte ie. - "either knocked out or abandonned due southwest of Gramesnil, on the road from La Jalouise to Cramesnil near reference Point 117", AND..., there were only 8 Tigers max available, then the obviuos question remains - is there really any Tiger left that could then be Wittmann's "007" that could have been the Typhoon's "only" victim in the group not accounted for as summarized above and detailed in the reports by the Brits??

The sequence of their destruction from both the British and German sides, also implies that Wittmann's Tiger was the second of the three "confirmeds" to be KO'd as it was noted to be the the only one hit to actually explode, to wit;

"At 1240 hours Captain Boardman gave Sergeant Gordon's tank the order to fire. The Tigers were seven-hundred meters distant. The Firefly's gunner was Trooper Joe Ekins, who hit the rearmost of the three Tigers in his sight with two shots. The Tigers had failed to spot the well-camouflaged Shermans, it was only after the shots had been fired and a Tiger knocked out that Wittmann transmitted the message referred to by SS-Hauptscharfuhrer Höflinger; "Move! Attention! Attention! Anti-tank guns to the right! - Back up!...". " (again p.425 Agte)

This one (ie. most likely "Wittmann's Tiger") reacted to the first Tiger being hit and stopped with the two 17pdr shots, by veering off to the right and returning fire with several shots back in the direction of the Shermans - quoting from Agte p.425 - "The Sherman (Firefly) changed its position somewhat to evade the Tiger's fire; one shell struck the turret hatch cover however, and wounded Sergeant Gordon in the head. He climbed out and Lieutenant James, his platoon commander, took over his tank and went back into position. At 1247 hours his gunner Ekins hit the second Tiger, which exploded in a ball of fire immediately after being hit. The foremost of the three Tigers was fired on by the other Shermans and was likely hit in a drive sprocket, for it began to spin in a circle. Ekins hit it with two shots at 1252 hours and the Tiger began to burn."

The fourth one - Hans Hoflinger's was KO'd on the other side of the road but its still uncertain as to who actually got it.

Agte's conclusion - "The three knocked out Tigers, about whose fate there are concrete details on the enemy side, were probably all accounted for by Trooper Ekins."

The forth - Höflinger's on the other side of the N158 is the only one unclaimed.

The fifth as previously mentioned was the lead one further on near Cranmesnil which was either KO'd or abandonned.

2. The damage...My other major worry is that if a 60lb High Explosive? warhead of a 'Tiffy' rocket has indeed struck the engine deck of "007" leaving 'a large hole spreading all the way to the turret pit' as you quote, it would thus indicate the direction of flight would have been from behind the Tiger (ie. from the direction of the German lines) so;

a)you'd think the grenadiers and anyone else under its flight path would have noticed it flying over them and

b)the impact would have thus been from back to front. Now, not intimately knowing the effect of these rockets myself but 'assuming' a 60lb warhead would be capable of a fair amount of damage, I still have great trouble believing it could hit the deck and cause such a pentetration to armour plate, YET at the same time leave the thin sheet metal turret bin only inches away totally unmarked or holed in anyway?? As this is the condition it is seen in even after the secondary ammo explosion has flipped the turret into the air and landed it on the grass months later when photgraphed by M.Varin.

A 17pdr AP round on the other hand could quite possibly inflict a gaping penetration yet produce no shrapnel or massive explosion in the process that would frag or mark surrounding paper-thin sheet metal. So I'd say even if we do agree there is a downward penetration on the deck based on solely M.Varin's account, the validty of which you are confident, I'm afraid my money would still have to be on an AP round and not an HE warhead doing it. And if as Jon says there is indeed a slight 20-30m hill that this treelined orchard the Brits were in nearly a km away allowing them to fire down onto the billiard table-flat plain that the Tigers were on then the 17pdr hit seems all the more logical.

3. You asked how could the initial displacement of the turret have occurred as it did? We KNOW from the eyewitness accounts it WAS initially displaced onto the deck and most souces state (regardless of where either either of us personally feel the hit came from - rocket or 17pdr), that it was the impact of this "ordnance" to the fuel tanks which produced the sheet of flame "explosion" which was remarked upon by both sides. The enormous shock wave of this blast in a sealed box such as a buttoned up tank would surely be quite capable of lifting the 20 odd ton turret (which only sat on the turret race by its own weight and wasn't locked down in any way) up slightly for a brief moment as a result and hence this displacement - the direction it went as it settled would have nothing to do with the angle it was hit from, but merely where the blast directed it as it was lifted.

OK - thats about as far as I think I can go to support the 17pdr hit evidence-wise - if its not enough, well we'll just have to good-naturedly agree to disagree on this point I'd say.

Now your feeling that "007" was a Mid is also of great interest as sadly the angle its snapped at procludes ascertaining it easily from the photo. So we go to written refs firstly...

I guess with your reference to p.255 of "TIC 2" though you aren't referring to the arrival date of 15th-27th of August 1943, as while yes it states "27 new Tigers arrive, including two command tanks", and they could indeed be Mids at this point, but these two at least are definitely still Earlies ("S04" and S05") as per the pics seen in Reggio (on p.102 in Restayn's "Tiger I on the Eastern Front"/p.138 Agtes's Wittmann (Eng. Ed.).

We know from photos that all three "007, "008", and "009" were zimmerited and from Tom Jentz's Osprey New Vanguard No.5, zimmerit didn't begin on Mids until September 1943, therefore these initial command tanks received can't be any of the ones used in Normandy. So the second arrival date of 9th-c.11th? of Jan 1944 of 2 command tanks is I guess what you mean. This is as you say inside the Mid with zimmerit window.

From the 2 shots (on p.284 of "TIC 2" and p.305 Agte's Eng. Wittmann), "009" though is definitely a late with steel wheels, so thus it must between "007" and "008" that are the Mids - correct?

Sadly the shot of "008" with its blown barrel is taken from front-on and its wheels and tow shackle styles are hidden (the latter by the crew), so it can't be confirmed photographically either way from this shot.

BUT...(and I love doing this as you can no doubt tell )from the only known shot of "007" I'm troubled by the drive sprocket still being visible when looking down its length...on a Mid with the outer row of wheels fitted this shouldn't be possible! This row and the front outer wheel in particular should sit outside it (eg. see p.275 for a shot of "331" which illustrates this), yet no outer wheels can be seen at all (on the LHS anyway)! It is obviously "possible" that they weren't fitted - a'la transport mode, but it would be v.unusual for them ALL to be missing once the battle tracks are on, as every other shot of Mids in this period with SS.101 shows them all on with not even the front one removed as per some EF Tiger units eg. s.Pz.Abt.502 etc. So thats one strike.

Another problem is that from Fgst. No.250635 to 250875 in Feb. 1944 a rear travel lock was carried on Mids in this production range, yet "007" doesn't appear to have it which is very odd if we believe its from the January delivery date? Again this could have been removed by the crews for some odd reason but unlikely as the two base plates off which it hinges were welded on so they should still be visble even if the arms are unbolted and taken off.

The big "BUT" though...and sorry to do this to you, as its the real killer for your Mid theory for "007", is that if we look closely at the lower LHS of the rear plate under the left exhaust stack, we see the small horizontal oval cover for the blow torch port for allowing cold weather starts - intro date...drumroll...February 1944 from Fgst. 250823 on - ie. ON THE LATES (which only began with 250822)! So again I'm afraid all the evidence screams Late not Mid for "007"!

"008" may still be an option for a Mid but without any other shots its toss-a-coin time on it. You'd "assume" it would have arrived with the 2 others in the same batch so I'd personally call heads that it is a Late too...

So the obvious question is what happened to these earlier 4 "command" tanks and when did the 2 (or 3) Lates arrive that are "007", "009" and possibly "008"? Not sure on the earlier one's fate (KO'd or long term repair as no reorts of a transfer to another unit appears to be mentioned anywhere but by Normandy no Earlies seem to be around in 101 any more only Mids & Lates). But as to the arrival of these "3 Late command tanks" it must have to be in the 20th of April 1944 batch of 25 Lates delivered that they turn up (but they sadly go unremarked on by Schneider on p.255 of "TIC 2" if he in fact knows).

Now I'm honestly not trying to be difficult but I also don't know if I can agree either that "007" (or "008" or "009" for that matter) are in plain yellow - they all appear to me at least to be in a light mottled (possibly dusty as it was high summer) 3 colour camo - "007" especially - note the turret bin with the dark colour under the "7" which is pristine white even this long after the battle.

So on all we've got so far (as per the game Cludeo) my position I'm afraid is still;

"A Firefly from the slight hill to the North East that KO'd a Late 3 colour Tiger of Hauptsturmführer Michael Wittmann on August 8 1944 at 1247 hours at Cintheuax near Gaumesnil:-)

To me the Typhoon raid if it indeed occurred based on M.Varin's testimony with the rocket embedded in the ground nearby happened at some point in time therafter.

Anyway as usual this is really great stuff and has been quite enjoyable playing amateur detective - hopefully by us shaking it to bits like this like a dog with a bone, we have perhaps got a clearer understanding of what actually happened, or at the very least will let everyone make a much more informed choice as to what they believe 'may have happened'. "